Hi, my name's Korin and I play a Ninja.

Honestly though we really do need a dodge buff.

_________________________________________

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Haze wrote:

Smokebomb is super amazing and useful in every single PvP occasion. It may not net you PKs, but it will surely give your team the upper hand if they play it right. (and if the enemies don't expect it)

Topic is about how ninja stamina should not be based on requiring two wayfarer pieces.

You're right.

Black Wizard stamina should not be based on five wayfarer pieces.

I agree. That's ridiculous. I already don't like stamina as a mechanic, but I know it won't go away. It should at least not be as cumbersome as it already can be. Also, shop camping is awful. Shop camping is anti-fun. You are not playing the game when you are shop camping.

You are absolutely right. There is no reason we should make the game in any way difficult. That would just be terrible!

You know, you are not really playing the game when you are dead... death is anti-fun!

/sarcasm

It is a very fair and useful mechanic, and just because you find it mildly inconveniencing is not reason enough to remove it.

_________________________________________

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Haze wrote:

Smokebomb is super amazing and useful in every single PvP occasion. It may not net you PKs, but it will surely give your team the upper hand if they play it right. (and if the enemies don't expect it)

Topic is about how ninja stamina should not be based on requiring two wayfarer pieces.

You're right.

Black Wizard stamina should not be based on five wayfarer pieces.

I agree. That's ridiculous. I already don't like stamina as a mechanic, but I know it won't go away. It should at least not be as cumbersome as it already can be. Also, shop camping is awful. Shop camping is anti-fun. You are not playing the game when you are shop camping.

You are absolutely right. There is no reason we should make the game in any way difficult. That would just be terrible!

You know, you are not really playing the game when you are dead... death is anti-fun!

/sarcasm

It is a very fair and useful mechanic, and just because you find it mildly inconveniencing is not reason enough to remove it.

I'm not arguing to remove it in this case. I'm arguing that specific instances of hindrance should be changed. Specifically, ninjas should have more strength so that they don't lose stamina so quickly. You should have potions and a change of equipment in your inventory at all times, right? Gotta have those elemental equips and regens and bonus health items to switch on and off when needed right? You can't do that very well on a ninja. They run out of stamina too quickly.

Cool story with your subject dodging though. I TOTALLY said that you should never die because dying is ****ing lame dude. It makes the game SO much worse and doesn't add any incentive to do well. Oh wait, I can argue that death makes the game better, while stamina makes it worse. Holy ****.

_________________________________________

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Haze wrote:

Smokebomb is super amazing and useful in every single PvP occasion. It may not net you PKs, but it will surely give your team the upper hand if they play it right. (and if the enemies don't expect it)

Topic is about how ninja stamina should not be based on requiring two wayfarer pieces.

You're right.

Black Wizard stamina should not be based on five wayfarer pieces.

I agree. That's ridiculous. I already don't like stamina as a mechanic, but I know it won't go away. It should at least not be as cumbersome as it already can be. Also, shop camping is awful. Shop camping is anti-fun. You are not playing the game when you are shop camping.

You are absolutely right. There is no reason we should make the game in any way difficult. That would just be terrible!

You know, you are not really playing the game when you are dead... death is anti-fun!

/sarcasm

It is a very fair and useful mechanic, and just because you find it mildly inconveniencing is not reason enough to remove it.

I'm not arguing to remove it in this case. I'm arguing that specific instances of hindrance should be changed. Specifically, ninjas should have more strength so that they don't lose stamina so quickly. You should have potions and a change of equipment in your inventory at all times, right? Gotta have those elemental equips and regens and bonus health items to switch on and off when needed right? You can't do that very well on a ninja. They run out of stamina too quickly.

Cool story with your subject dodging though. I TOTALLY said that you should never die because dying is ****ing lame dude. It makes the game SO much worse and doesn't add any incentive to do well. Oh wait, I can argue that death makes the game better, while stamina makes it worse. Holy ****.

It still is not really reason enough to change it just because it bugs you. I personally think farming for drops - whether by hunting permas, hunting champs, or camping shops - is a very important part of the game. Saying that you aren't playing the game when you are camping shops is seriously like saying that you aren't playing the game when you die, or you aren't playing the game when you are building/maintaining a domain. You don't even have to shopcamp for it yourself - you can just hunt monsters for the gold and pay it to someone that would be willing to shopcamp for you.

You don't have to play the game 24/7 - in fact, if you are busy with something else, i.e. homework, or reading, or cleaning your living space.

Honestly, I have only ever needed one Wayfarer tops when worrying about elements or health suffixes. If you are running constantly, you can switch something unnecessary off for a Wayfarer, and when you are done running, take it off.

And it isn't subject dodging. It was an analogy. Dying is a very annoying process of the game, but it is an important part of it; also, it matters very little if you can argue that stamina makes the game worse because I can argue that stamina makes the game better.

_________________________________________

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Haze wrote:

Smokebomb is super amazing and useful in every single PvP occasion. It may not net you PKs, but it will surely give your team the upper hand if they play it right. (and if the enemies don't expect it)

Topic is about how ninja stamina should not be based on requiring two wayfarer pieces.

You're right.

Black Wizard stamina should not be based on five wayfarer pieces.

I agree. That's ridiculous. I already don't like stamina as a mechanic, but I know it won't go away. It should at least not be as cumbersome as it already can be. Also, shop camping is awful. Shop camping is anti-fun. You are not playing the game when you are shop camping.

You are absolutely right. There is no reason we should make the game in any way difficult. That would just be terrible!

You know, you are not really playing the game when you are dead... death is anti-fun!

/sarcasm

It is a very fair and useful mechanic, and just because you find it mildly inconveniencing is not reason enough to remove it.

I'm not arguing to remove it in this case. I'm arguing that specific instances of hindrance should be changed. Specifically, ninjas should have more strength so that they don't lose stamina so quickly. You should have potions and a change of equipment in your inventory at all times, right? Gotta have those elemental equips and regens and bonus health items to switch on and off when needed right? You can't do that very well on a ninja. They run out of stamina too quickly.

Cool story with your subject dodging though. I TOTALLY said that you should never die because dying is ****ing lame dude. It makes the game SO much worse and doesn't add any incentive to do well. Oh wait, I can argue that death makes the game better, while stamina makes it worse. Holy ****.

It still is not really reason enough to change it just because it bugs you. I personally think farming for drops - whether by hunting permas, hunting champs, or camping shops - is a very important part of the game. Saying that you aren't playing the game when you are camping shops is seriously like saying that you aren't playing the game when you die, or you aren't playing the game when you are building/maintaining a domain. You don't even have to shopcamp for it yourself - you can just hunt monsters for the gold and pay it to someone that would be willing to shopcamp for you.

You don't have to play the game 24/7 - in fact, if you are busy with something else, i.e. homework, or reading, or cleaning your living space.

Honestly, I have only ever needed one Wayfarer tops when worrying about elements or health suffixes. If you are running constantly, you can switch something unnecessary off for a Wayfarer, and when you are done running, take it off.

And it isn't subject dodging. It was an analogy. Dying is a very annoying process of the game, but it is an important part of it; also, it matters very little if you can argue that stamina makes the game worse because I can argue that stamina makes the game better.

Then go for it. What about stamina makes for a better gameplay experience?

_________________________________________

Stamina was introduced to the game to counter people from running willy nilly around freely without consequence. A good example would be a Black Wizard with fast. If there was no such thing as stamina then they would be able to run around like DBZ characters all the time. Having stamina pieces in the game makes using certain gear more important and adds another element to gameplay.

If stamina were removed all the "hardcore" players would have much more of an upper hand. Granted these players usually don't have stamina issues but you have to put in the work to get results.

3 days of playing a character won't make you uber.

EDIT: It takes about 3 weeks or so to a month of "hardcore" playing to get all your skills/proffs/gear to reach a point where you can be even close to or on par with the rest of the players on the server this hosting.

With more playing you'll get your gear. Also, it may suck but since shops were boosted you will be able to have no stamina issues if you play long enough and just look.

Also about Ninja's. They are one of the worst classes to train up from the start. To be honest people take it usually as a secondary class or if they are already familiar with it, then that's the only time they will use it to it's full potential.












_________________________________________

I agree with Jeebsus. I have a Ninja and they require a lot of training and good gear, just like any melee class.

Ninjas really don't need a strength boost, people are forgetting that they are good for being sneaky, stealing, filching, disguising as cit to run in towns to break in doors, backstabbing, etc. All of these things require a good amount of profing to be used effectively. Not to mention, Ninjas are also an expensive class gear wise, but the high tier stealth armor really is worth it in the end. Just get better stealth armor and you'll dodge a lot more.

_________________________________________

Well, you're right about stamina doing what it does. But isn't it negated by stamina pieces? Most classes can get away with fewer stamina pieces. Ninjas cannot. I think the lower level cap is hurting them more than most other classes in this respect. Knights and Masters have strength to spare. Red disencumber and I believe more strength than ninjas anyways. Black wizards have less and I don't know about white wizards.

And, you're saying that ninjas are weak initially, aren't you? Why is that so? I don't mean that litterally, but from a game design standpoint. Where is it that ninjas aren't good until they've got all of their skills all proffed out, and why does it take so long to do so?

But really, it sucks to be a ninja until you've got a lot of experience. Can't they get some strength to make the early days a bit easier?

_________________________________________

hypersama wrote:

Well, you're right about stamina doing what it does. But isn't it negated by stamina pieces? Most classes can get away with fewer stamina pieces. Ninjas cannot. I think the lower level cap is hurting them more than most other classes in this respect. Knights and Masters have strength to spare. Red disencumber and I believe more strength than ninjas anyways. Black wizards have less and I don't know about white wizards.

And, you're saying that ninjas are weak initially, aren't you? Why is that so? I don't mean that litterally, but from a game design standpoint. Where is it that ninjas aren't good until they've got all of their skills all proffed out, and why does it take so long to do so?

But really, it sucks to be a ninja until you've got a lot of experience. Can't they get some strength to make the early days a bit easier?

Wrong. Most Knights I know have to walk around with 4+ Wayfarers because Heavy armor is... guess what? Heavy. Stealth weighs virtually nothing. Like I said, my Ninja can get away with 2 Wayfarers most of the time - and if I need to run like hell, I just temporarily toss on a third Wayfarer, which is still less than most Knights I know, and definitely less than Black Wizards.

Black Wizards start out pretty weak initially. They are completely squishy and get stepped on all the time, and usually lack the firepower to nuke enemies before they can step on them.

Knights also don't start out all super pro. White Wizards don't start with Life and the ability to Heal 300 to 10 people.

From a design point of view? You have to work to get good - why would it be a good idea to have classes start out insanely powerful when the game is PvP centered? People could just pick up the most powerful newbie class and abuse it.

_________________________________________

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Well, you're right about stamina doing what it does. But isn't it negated by stamina pieces? Most classes can get away with fewer stamina pieces. Ninjas cannot. I think the lower level cap is hurting them more than most other classes in this respect. Knights and Masters have strength to spare. Red disencumber and I believe more strength than ninjas anyways. Black wizards have less and I don't know about white wizards.

And, you're saying that ninjas are weak initially, aren't you? Why is that so? I don't mean that litterally, but from a game design standpoint. Where is it that ninjas aren't good until they've got all of their skills all proffed out, and why does it take so long to do so?

But really, it sucks to be a ninja until you've got a lot of experience. Can't they get some strength to make the early days a bit easier?

Wrong. Most Knights I know have to walk around with 4+ Wayfarers because Heavy armor is... guess what? Heavy. Stealth weighs virtually nothing. Like I said, my Ninja can get away with 2 Wayfarers most of the time - and if I need to run like hell, I just temporarily toss on a third Wayfarer, which is still less than most Knights I know, and definitely less than Black Wizards.

Black Wizards start out pretty weak initially. They are completely squishy and get stepped on all the time, and usually lack the firepower to nuke enemies before they can step on them.

Knights also don't start out all super pro. White Wizards don't start with Life and the ability to Heal 300 to 10 people.

From a design point of view? You have to work to get good - why would it be a good idea to have classes start out insanely powerful when the game is PvP centered? People could just pick up the most powerful newbie class and abuse it.

Can you honestly tell me that people play black wizards because they're weak, and don't play ninjas because they're strong?

_________________________________________

The reduced level cap but same prof cap this hosting messed up a lot of balancing, especially between classes.
One of the reasons for this change was to let newer players catch up to veterens faster, I can't remember if there was much more though.

_________________________________________

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Well, you're right about stamina doing what it does. But isn't it negated by stamina pieces? Most classes can get away with fewer stamina pieces. Ninjas cannot. I think the lower level cap is hurting them more than most other classes in this respect. Knights and Masters have strength to spare. Red disencumber and I believe more strength than ninjas anyways. Black wizards have less and I don't know about white wizards.

And, you're saying that ninjas are weak initially, aren't you? Why is that so? I don't mean that litterally, but from a game design standpoint. Where is it that ninjas aren't good until they've got all of their skills all proffed out, and why does it take so long to do so?

But really, it sucks to be a ninja until you've got a lot of experience. Can't they get some strength to make the early days a bit easier?

Wrong. Most Knights I know have to walk around with 4+ Wayfarers because Heavy armor is... guess what? Heavy. Stealth weighs virtually nothing. Like I said, my Ninja can get away with 2 Wayfarers most of the time - and if I need to run like hell, I just temporarily toss on a third Wayfarer, which is still less than most Knights I know, and definitely less than Black Wizards.

Black Wizards start out pretty weak initially. They are completely squishy and get stepped on all the time, and usually lack the firepower to nuke enemies before they can step on them.

Knights also don't start out all super pro. White Wizards don't start with Life and the ability to Heal 300 to 10 people.

From a design point of view? You have to work to get good - why would it be a good idea to have classes start out insanely powerful when the game is PvP centered? People could just pick up the most powerful newbie class and abuse it.

Can you honestly tell me that people play black wizards because they're weak, and don't play ninjas because they're strong?

What? That is not even close to what I am saying.

Black Wizards start out squishy as **** but then become pretty extreme. It is pretty similar for Ninjas. They don't start out able to sneak into town, break into houses, and steal everything. You have to work for that ability.

This entire thing was about Ninja stamina and I already gave you extremely valid points why they don't need more strength for stamina.

_________________________________________

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

Well, you're right about stamina doing what it does. But isn't it negated by stamina pieces? Most classes can get away with fewer stamina pieces. Ninjas cannot. I think the lower level cap is hurting them more than most other classes in this respect. Knights and Masters have strength to spare. Red disencumber and I believe more strength than ninjas anyways. Black wizards have less and I don't know about white wizards.

And, you're saying that ninjas are weak initially, aren't you? Why is that so? I don't mean that litterally, but from a game design standpoint. Where is it that ninjas aren't good until they've got all of their skills all proffed out, and why does it take so long to do so?

But really, it sucks to be a ninja until you've got a lot of experience. Can't they get some strength to make the early days a bit easier?

Wrong. Most Knights I know have to walk around with 4+ Wayfarers because Heavy armor is... guess what? Heavy. Stealth weighs virtually nothing. Like I said, my Ninja can get away with 2 Wayfarers most of the time - and if I need to run like hell, I just temporarily toss on a third Wayfarer, which is still less than most Knights I know, and definitely less than Black Wizards.

Black Wizards start out pretty weak initially. They are completely squishy and get stepped on all the time, and usually lack the firepower to nuke enemies before they can step on them.

Knights also don't start out all super pro. White Wizards don't start with Life and the ability to Heal 300 to 10 people.

From a design point of view? You have to work to get good - why would it be a good idea to have classes start out insanely powerful when the game is PvP centered? People could just pick up the most powerful newbie class and abuse it.

Can you honestly tell me that people play black wizards because they're weak, and don't play ninjas because they're strong?

What? That is not even close to what I am saying.

Black Wizards start out squishy as **** but then become pretty extreme. It is pretty similar for Ninjas. They don't start out able to sneak into town, break into houses, and steal everything. You have to work for that ability.

This entire thing was about Ninja stamina and I already gave you extremely valid points why they don't need more strength for stamina.

No, you just said to get two wayfarer pieces. Well I've been looking, and no dice. They're never in the shops, and I'd be lucky to find them on stealth pieces with a decent element anyways. Compound that with the increase in engrave and upgrade cost brought on by the keyword and you've got a mechanic that really sucks. Give them some more strength. They really need the increase in damage and the stamina. And don't tell me they don't. Do you even play your ninja? And who are you? There are so few ninjas in game, and it's because they are, at the very least, the only class in the game that is damned near useless until they have everything proffed. At least every single mage has SOMETHING they can contribute, even before they've gotten the twenty million experience they need to have things well proffed. Masters need some work too. Knights could use something but they're alright at least.

I'm trying to take a step in the right direction for the classes in this game. You KNOW that all of the melee classes are worse off than the mages in the game right now. Ninjas could, at LEAST take a small increase in damage output and stamina. A small increase in strength will do both of those things.

_________________________________________

i like how the reduced level cap was to help new players catch up to the vets. but really when you realize 90% of your experience is for proffs not lvs and considering how FFO is currently there is no such thing as a new player base seems kinda pointless

_________________________________________

hypersama wrote:

No, you just said to get two wayfarer pieces. Well I've been looking, and no dice. They're never in the shops, and I'd be lucky to find them on stealth pieces with a decent element anyways. Compound that with the increase in engrave and upgrade cost brought on by the keyword and you've got a mechanic that really sucks. Give them some more strength. They really need the increase in damage and the stamina. And don't tell me they don't. Do you even play your ninja? And who are you? There are so few ninjas in game, and it's because they are, at the very least, the only class in the game that is damned near useless until they have everything proffed. At least every single mage has SOMETHING they can contribute, even before they've gotten the twenty million experience they need to have things well proffed. Masters need some work too. Knights could use something but they're alright at least.

I'm trying to take a step in the right direction for the classes in this game. You KNOW that all of the melee classes are worse off than the mages in the game right now. Ninjas could, at LEAST take a small increase in damage output and stamina. A small increase in strength will do both of those things.

I said to get two or three Wayfarer pieces. I also added that, despite their speed, the weightlessness of their armour generally causes them to need less Wayfarers than other classes. Then, you said that Stamina is detrimental to gameplay; Jeebs offered an argument as to why Stamina is good for this game.

On a good night of shopcamping I have gotten about four Wayfarers in the two hours of night-time. They are pretty common, and if the stamina issues bug you that much then you can wait it out. Remember, shops give better stuff at nights, and better stuff the closer to a New Moon. My Ninja only uses one Stealth Wayfarer - Light Wayfarers are also very good to use for Ninjas, and if you are that desperate you could pop a Mage Wayfarer and probably trade it for a Light/Stealth later on. There is no real reason to need an element on your Wayfarer piece though - I don't know why you think all that **** is necessary. You need maybe two pieces per element, tops, except for dark, which I have neutralized with three pieces anyway. It is not like you are trying to wear everything all the damned time. You can switch armor pieces as the situation dictates.

Seriously, I have never heard of a Ninja whining about needing more Strength because they have stamina issues - and finding Wayfarers this server is infinitely easier than most servers beforehand.

Yes, I play my Ninja. Her name is Alaula, if you really want to know. She has been responsible for stealing quite a few Garland drops, including a Fury Lava-Mace from someone I don't even remember that thought I was Hydro. She also broke into Diadel earlier in the server, stealing hundreds of thousands of gold and a bunch of good items. Every time a new Domain has popped up, Alaula has been there to pick the locks.

Contribute? What the **** is this ****? You want to CONTRIBUTE to a party with a Ninja? Have you looked at your skill list recently? Ninjas are made entirely of skills meant to grief and piss people off. In fact, they are so ****ing hardcore at griefing that they have been the most nerfed to hell class in FFO and people still hate their guts. Perhaps the issue is that you don't know how to play the class you chose. Just a thought.

The reason melee classes are worse off than mages is not that melee classes are extremely underpowered but that magic is extremely overpowered, which is something that is currently being worked on.

If this topic is about your Ninja being too weak, then say that. Don't cover it up with stamina bull****.

_________________________________________

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

No, you just said to get two wayfarer pieces. Well I've been looking, and no dice. They're never in the shops, and I'd be lucky to find them on stealth pieces with a decent element anyways. Compound that with the increase in engrave and upgrade cost brought on by the keyword and you've got a mechanic that really sucks. Give them some more strength. They really need the increase in damage and the stamina. And don't tell me they don't. Do you even play your ninja? And who are you? There are so few ninjas in game, and it's because they are, at the very least, the only class in the game that is damned near useless until they have everything proffed. At least every single mage has SOMETHING they can contribute, even before they've gotten the twenty million experience they need to have things well proffed. Masters need some work too. Knights could use something but they're alright at least.

I'm trying to take a step in the right direction for the classes in this game. You KNOW that all of the melee classes are worse off than the mages in the game right now. Ninjas could, at LEAST take a small increase in damage output and stamina. A small increase in strength will do both of those things.

I said to get two or three Wayfarer pieces. I also added that, despite their speed, the weightlessness of their armour generally causes them to need less Wayfarers than other classes. Then, you said that Stamina is detrimental to gameplay; Jeebs offered an argument as to why Stamina is good for this game.

On a good night of shopcamping I have gotten about four Wayfarers in the two hours of night-time. They are pretty common, and if the stamina issues bug you that much then you can wait it out. Remember, shops give better stuff at nights, and better stuff the closer to a New Moon. My Ninja only uses one Stealth Wayfarer - Light Wayfarers are also very good to use for Ninjas, and if you are that desperate you could pop a Mage Wayfarer and probably trade it for a Light/Stealth later on. There is no real reason to need an element on your Wayfarer piece though - I don't know why you think all that **** is necessary. You need maybe two pieces per element, tops, except for dark, which I have neutralized with three pieces anyway. It is not like you are trying to wear everything all the damned time. You can switch armor pieces as the situation dictates.

Seriously, I have never heard of a Ninja whining about needing more Strength because they have stamina issues - and finding Wayfarers this server is infinitely easier than most servers beforehand.

Yes, I play my Ninja. Her name is Alaula, if you really want to know. She has been responsible for stealing quite a few Garland drops, including a Fury Lava-Mace from someone I don't even remember that thought I was Hydro. She also broke into Diadel earlier in the server, stealing hundreds of thousands of gold and a bunch of good items. Every time a new Domain has popped up, Alaula has been there to pick the locks.

Contribute? What the **** is this ****? You want to CONTRIBUTE to a party with a Ninja? Have you looked at your skill list recently? Ninjas are made entirely of skills meant to grief and piss people off. In fact, they are so ****ing hardcore at griefing that they have been the most nerfed to hell class in FFO and people still hate their guts. Perhaps the issue is that you don't know how to play the class you chose. Just a thought.

The reason melee classes are worse off than mages is not that melee classes are extremely underpowered but that magic is extremely overpowered, which is something that is currently being worked on.

If this topic is about your Ninja being too weak, then say that. Don't cover it up with stamina bull****.

This isn't about my ninja being weak. My ANY CLASS will be weak. I am not good at this game.

Why do you think this game is "work"? Where did you ever get the impression that any "game" should be "work"? Games are not "work". Games are what you do when you don't want to work. They are what you do when you want to unwind from work. A game is there to challenge you, and reward you for being successful. There should never be any "work" involved in playing a game. It's "play". In fact, how dare you? How DARE you absolutely INSIST that a game be work? I'm absolutely FURIOUS that you could insist such a thing. That's downright insanity. Is this what the FFO community at large is? A group of people with the absurd belief that a game should be work?

There shouldn't be an issue of "how to play this class". I don't want to grief. Griefing is for ******s that thrive on making a fun activity not fun for others. I want to run fast and perform cool and tactical feats while swinging knives. The IDEA of a ninja is what appeals to me, not some invisible set of rules on HOW a ninja should be played. It's MADDENING to think that any way to play an online multiplayer game where you work together with others should involve a choice where you are sub par at helping your allies but thrive at making the FUN GAME worse for the players. Ninjas should bring something to the table for PvE, just like any other class. The ride to that level where you've got everything proffed and can use all of your skills to accomplish your goals should be a FUN ride, not hard work.

/rage
/rage
/rage
/a game should reward you for having fun and punish you a little for failing and not require you to work for the game to be fun the work is for the people who make the game not the players read a game design book gawwwwwdddddd

But this is far and away from the purpose of this topic.

Ninjas have extremely low auto attack damage output and low stamina. I think everyone can agree that they don't hit for enough damage for a class that has a reliance on auto attacking.

I think ninjas have stamina issues that are compounded by the fact that the level cap is twenty.

I think a small increase in strength would help address both of these issues.

An alternative solution would be the let great knives appear in shops. This would give ninjas a good tool for dishing out damage with, but I don't think you're going to go for this.

_________________________________________

hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

No, you just said to get two wayfarer pieces. Well I've been looking, and no dice. They're never in the shops, and I'd be lucky to find them on stealth pieces with a decent element anyways. Compound that with the increase in engrave and upgrade cost brought on by the keyword and you've got a mechanic that really sucks. Give them some more strength. They really need the increase in damage and the stamina. And don't tell me they don't. Do you even play your ninja? And who are you? There are so few ninjas in game, and it's because they are, at the very least, the only class in the game that is damned near useless until they have everything proffed. At least every single mage has SOMETHING they can contribute, even before they've gotten the twenty million experience they need to have things well proffed. Masters need some work too. Knights could use something but they're alright at least.

I'm trying to take a step in the right direction for the classes in this game. You KNOW that all of the melee classes are worse off than the mages in the game right now. Ninjas could, at LEAST take a small increase in damage output and stamina. A small increase in strength will do both of those things.

I said to get two or three Wayfarer pieces. I also added that, despite their speed, the weightlessness of their armour generally causes them to need less Wayfarers than other classes. Then, you said that Stamina is detrimental to gameplay; Jeebs offered an argument as to why Stamina is good for this game.

On a good night of shopcamping I have gotten about four Wayfarers in the two hours of night-time. They are pretty common, and if the stamina issues bug you that much then you can wait it out. Remember, shops give better stuff at nights, and better stuff the closer to a New Moon. My Ninja only uses one Stealth Wayfarer - Light Wayfarers are also very good to use for Ninjas, and if you are that desperate you could pop a Mage Wayfarer and probably trade it for a Light/Stealth later on. There is no real reason to need an element on your Wayfarer piece though - I don't know why you think all that **** is necessary. You need maybe two pieces per element, tops, except for dark, which I have neutralized with three pieces anyway. It is not like you are trying to wear everything all the damned time. You can switch armor pieces as the situation dictates.

Seriously, I have never heard of a Ninja whining about needing more Strength because they have stamina issues - and finding Wayfarers this server is infinitely easier than most servers beforehand.

Yes, I play my Ninja. Her name is Alaula, if you really want to know. She has been responsible for stealing quite a few Garland drops, including a Fury Lava-Mace from someone I don't even remember that thought I was Hydro. She also broke into Diadel earlier in the server, stealing hundreds of thousands of gold and a bunch of good items. Every time a new Domain has popped up, Alaula has been there to pick the locks.

Contribute? What the **** is this ****? You want to CONTRIBUTE to a party with a Ninja? Have you looked at your skill list recently? Ninjas are made entirely of skills meant to grief and piss people off. In fact, they are so ****ing hardcore at griefing that they have been the most nerfed to hell class in FFO and people still hate their guts. Perhaps the issue is that you don't know how to play the class you chose. Just a thought.

The reason melee classes are worse off than mages is not that melee classes are extremely underpowered but that magic is extremely overpowered, which is something that is currently being worked on.

If this topic is about your Ninja being too weak, then say that. Don't cover it up with stamina bull****.

This isn't about my ninja being weak. My ANY CLASS will be weak. I am not good at this game.

Why do you think this game is "work"? Where did you ever get the impression that any "game" should be "work"? Games are not "work". Games are what you do when you don't want to work. They are what you do when you want to unwind from work. A game is there to challenge you, and reward you for being successful. There should never be any "work" involved in playing a game. It's "play". In fact, how dare you? How DARE you absolutely INSIST that a game be work? I'm absolutely FURIOUS that you could insist such a thing. That's downright insanity. Is this what the FFO community at large is? A group of people with the absurd belief that a game should be work?

There shouldn't be an issue of "how to play this class". I don't want to grief. Griefing is for ******s that thrive on making a fun activity not fun for others. I want to run fast and perform cool and tactical feats while swinging knives. The IDEA of a ninja is what appeals to me, not some invisible set of rules on HOW a ninja should be played. It's MADDENING to think that any way to play an online multiplayer game where you work together with others should involve a choice where you are sub par at helping your allies but thrive at making the FUN GAME worse for the players. Ninjas should bring something to the table for PvE, just like any other class. The ride to that level where you've got everything proffed and can use all of your skills to accomplish your goals should be a FUN ride, not hard work.

/rage
/rage
/rage
/a game should reward you for having fun and punish you a little for failing and not require you to work for the game to be fun the work is for the people who make the game not the players read a game design book gawwwwwdddddd

But this is far and away from the purpose of this topic.

Ninjas have extremely low auto attack damage output and low stamina. I think everyone can agree that they don't hit for enough damage for a class that has a reliance on auto attacking.

I think ninjas have stamina issues that are compounded by the fact that the level cap is twenty.

I think a small increase in strength would help address both of these issues.

An alternative solution would be the let great knives appear in shops. This would give ninjas a good tool for dishing out damage with, but I don't think you're going to go for this.

I played a ninja last hosting, it got to level 20 at the most and it wore 1 wanderer and I was running all around the map with no stam problems, it wore swindler-royal gear, a zerker wanderer brace and other items didn't have any stam suffixes, I even think I has a hwm bangle of the snail

I ran from gh to leam one time and my stam was still at half, it also did sexy dmg with a slayer sai and silver knife, rapidly too, it wasn't even highly proffed and I outdmged a lot of masters, and ninjas weren't nerfed since then, so a ninja's potential isn't low

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hypersama wrote:

Shane wrote:

hypersama wrote:

No, you just said to get two wayfarer pieces. Well I've been looking, and no dice. They're never in the shops, and I'd be lucky to find them on stealth pieces with a decent element anyways. Compound that with the increase in engrave and upgrade cost brought on by the keyword and you've got a mechanic that really sucks. Give them some more strength. They really need the increase in damage and the stamina. And don't tell me they don't. Do you even play your ninja? And who are you? There are so few ninjas in game, and it's because they are, at the very least, the only class in the game that is damned near useless until they have everything proffed. At least every single mage has SOMETHING they can contribute, even before they've gotten the twenty million experience they need to have things well proffed. Masters need some work too. Knights could use something but they're alright at least.

I'm trying to take a step in the right direction for the classes in this game. You KNOW that all of the melee classes are worse off than the mages in the game right now. Ninjas could, at LEAST take a small increase in damage output and stamina. A small increase in strength will do both of those things.

I said to get two or three Wayfarer pieces. I also added that, despite their speed, the weightlessness of their armour generally causes them to need less Wayfarers than other classes. Then, you said that Stamina is detrimental to gameplay; Jeebs offered an argument as to why Stamina is good for this game.

On a good night of shopcamping I have gotten about four Wayfarers in the two hours of night-time. They are pretty common, and if the stamina issues bug you that much then you can wait it out. Remember, shops give better stuff at nights, and better stuff the closer to a New Moon. My Ninja only uses one Stealth Wayfarer - Light Wayfarers are also very good to use for Ninjas, and if you are that desperate you could pop a Mage Wayfarer and probably trade it for a Light/Stealth later on. There is no real reason to need an element on your Wayfarer piece though - I don't know why you think all that **** is necessary. You need maybe two pieces per element, tops, except for dark, which I have neutralized with three pieces anyway. It is not like you are trying to wear everything all the damned time. You can switch armor pieces as the situation dictates.

Seriously, I have never heard of a Ninja whining about needing more Strength because they have stamina issues - and finding Wayfarers this server is infinitely easier than most servers beforehand.

Yes, I play my Ninja. Her name is Alaula, if you really want to know. She has been responsible for stealing quite a few Garland drops, including a Fury Lava-Mace from someone I don't even remember that thought I was Hydro. She also broke into Diadel earlier in the server, stealing hundreds of thousands of gold and a bunch of good items. Every time a new Domain has popped up, Alaula has been there to pick the locks.

Contribute? What the **** is this ****? You want to CONTRIBUTE to a party with a Ninja? Have you looked at your skill list recently? Ninjas are made entirely of skills meant to grief and piss people off. In fact, they are so ****ing hardcore at griefing that they have been the most nerfed to hell class in FFO and people still hate their guts. Perhaps the issue is that you don't know how to play the class you chose. Just a thought.

The reason melee classes are worse off than mages is not that melee classes are extremely underpowered but that magic is extremely overpowered, which is something that is currently being worked on.

If this topic is about your Ninja being too weak, then say that. Don't cover it up with stamina bull****.

This isn't about my ninja being weak. My ANY CLASS will be weak. I am not good at this game.

Why do you think this game is "work"? Where did you ever get the impression that any "game" should be "work"? Games are not "work". Games are what you do when you don't want to work. They are what you do when you want to unwind from work. A game is there to challenge you, and reward you for being successful. There should never be any "work" involved in playing a game. It's "play". In fact, how dare you? How DARE you absolutely INSIST that a game be work? I'm absolutely FURIOUS that you could insist such a thing. That's downright insanity. Is this what the FFO community at large is? A group of people with the absurd belief that a game should be work?

There shouldn't be an issue of "how to play this class". I don't want to grief. Griefing is for ******s that thrive on making a fun activity not fun for others. I want to run fast and perform cool and tactical feats while swinging knives. The IDEA of a ninja is what appeals to me, not some invisible set of rules on HOW a ninja should be played. It's MADDENING to think that any way to play an online multiplayer game where you work together with others should involve a choice where you are sub par at helping your allies but thrive at making the FUN GAME worse for the players. Ninjas should bring something to the table for PvE, just like any other class. The ride to that level where you've got everything proffed and can use all of your skills to accomplish your goals should be a FUN ride, not hard work.

/rage
/rage
/rage
/a game should reward you for having fun and punish you a little for failing and not require you to work for the game to be fun the work is for the people who make the game not the players read a game design book gawwwwwdddddd

But this is far and away from the purpose of this topic.

Ninjas have extremely low auto attack damage output and low stamina. I think everyone can agree that they don't hit for enough damage for a class that has a reliance on auto attacking.

I think ninjas have stamina issues that are compounded by the fact that the level cap is twenty.

I think a small increase in strength would help address both of these issues.

An alternative solution would be the let great knives appear in shops. This would give ninjas a good tool for dishing out damage with, but I don't think you're going to go for this.

I had this gigantic post typed up explaining in depth how stupid this post was, and including multiple points about why you are wrong in many, many ways, but my Internet ate it.

So I will limit my retort to just one thing:

Stop acting like the world owes you ****, because it doesn't. The world was here first.

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Great Knives can be used by any class, and are probably even better on certain other classes too, currently.

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I'm not going to read this but I am going to say that ninja and red wizards have been given a strength boost in the past before, that every class needs 2+ wayfayer equipment if they want to carry what they want/need, and the fact that ninja are faster means they will consume more stamina as a result.

There's an obvious pro and an annoying con with having higher speed, it's there for a reason. Usually in any game, if you have the option to eliminate any weakness with better equipment that doesn't curse you in any way (other than costing you more gold), it's not really that bad a con at all.

You already said you're not that good at the game, so learn what everyone else does and shaddup.

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