Well, I am going to be a part of this topic, my opinion is as valid as anyone else's, and I feel like expressing it: This community has turned to shit, I stand by that. And really, do you have a moral high ground to stand on? I thought you quit long ago? Oh right, never mind, that "never happened".

I don't know why you have this vendetta against me, but I do find it cute that I'm apparantly "important enough" to show up on the radar of such "old-school" players.

Ad hominem aside, why don't you contribute to the topic like I did as opposed to outright attacking someone?

You can't be both a detriment and a contributing poster. If you cause problems actively then don't expect people to not be wary of whatever you dabble your fingers in.

I agree with having the admin character on a separate character, on a separate key. There's a slight boost of convenience with what we have now, but our problems with admins taking advantage of it is so bad that it's actually better to keep admin char away and on stand-by.

I actually had Sinsie made on my original key just in case I ever did really get admin back (every now and then things seem bad enough that it might be a possibility...). The fact that admin is also called GM now is a big sign we need to take steps in fixing that. Not Gaku either, us. Admins requesting that they have a key specifically set for administration purposes would help a lot and be more responsible.

LP was talking with me about how he's been moderating previous games before and since he has, well let's just say a "real life" plus other factors to consider, he has the type of mindset that doesn't see adjunct-admin as anything but adjunct-admin and is definitely a good choice.

Cea and I always talk about stuff together, pretty much everything, and he works with Gaku a lot more and I work on getting little tidbits and accumulating "evidence" more often so even though it's sorta gay to say I suggest that if one of us gets admin, the other should get it as well. It's not like it's an outrageous idea since a) we already did that just fine, b) Emma and Locke were also like this (two admins in a relationship moderating the game). It would really just be annoying if only one of us gets it because the rules say you can't log into another's character and we'd trust each other with admin, only one of us would get to post and we're on at different times, etc.

I'm just saying it's more practical in the long run, and for people that don't like one of us but likes the other (I actually don't know who likes me but not Cea) if both of us are there then when we talk about it that's two different opinions going at it, which helped a lot before. We don't think alike at all really. It's not like you can't trust us either; Cea loves this game too much and always wants to improve it and I just like really cleaning up the game a ton (which is why I wish I could moderate these forums better!!!).

The reason I'm saying outright me, Cea, and LP right now is because that's sorta the direction this topic's going, so why don't we bring up some issues or concerns about any of us three while posting here? If I remember right we only had some of the admins be questioned by the community, and those two were lil' Ethril and KajiKitsune. If people are worried or want to know why us.

To finish, if Locke wants to stay on after all the yelling, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I didn't like having four admins before because first one, then two, went out of commission and it came down to me and Cea having to try and contact both all the time before we did things, but with the current choices right now I think it'd work way better. Plus even if I disagree with Locke, I don't hate him and I think anyone would work better with more peers around. Whether three or four of us around, lowering the amount of control right now and having more opinions, ideas, and facts around should offer better results.

All in all, I think things would work out very nicely with the currently suggested options and we'd get back to a point where people accused of wrong-doing are heavily investigated and procedures are followed before banning and whatnot. Back to a "mythical golden past" :p

No I don't support the Reactionary movement relax.

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Locke wrote:

Dean wrote:

No-clip and Warp/Summon are three different things.

No-clip, serves no good purpose.
I believe the same for summon.

Warp-to can be useful for popping in to check out suspected rule breaking.

You could still potentially escape pvp/pvm using warp-to, but whatev.

Summon has been abused in the past. People being summoned while admin is on a boat and leaving them in the water etc.

No-clip has been used to avoid pvp and pvm along with perma snatching, spawn chest snatching, sitting on houses and other ridiculous bullshit.

No clip is GM conceal, its the same ability, its the way I catch people in the act, because if they see me there they're instantly going to stop. GM conceal makes me invisible and able to fly over anything basically.

I've never summoned anyone unless as a joke or if I really needed to. I put one of my friends in the middle of the water between Argo and Vorgardia once, but they thought it was funny.

The other stuff, like avoiding pvp, like I said, I did that once. I don't do perma-snatching, I don't use it to dodge pvm (honestly who would? I'm pretty sure the mobs just despawn, it'd be pointless), never used it to grab spawn chests, or sit on houses.

Really now, stop assuming I do everything Garral did. I am not Garral, and there are good reasons his admin got removed.

Really now, stop assuming I was talking about you.

Conceal should be for concealment. It doesn't need to let you walk over dense tiles etc.

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I think Cea, Sinsie, Lp combo would be good for ffo. Cea and Sinsie did a great job in the past, so I'm sure they will this time, and Lp doesnt show the same views as Cea, so this should all be a very balanced trio. If they get accepted then hopefully theyll fix the rules, and I hope head admin will be abolished and a three admin or a four team admin stay in ffo and if we use a form of admin in terulia we keep the same system.

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watabou4gm2009-2010 _________________________________________

The major problem I have with Cea/Sinsie/LP combo is that they always agree, or at least it seems like it. If you have three people with the same perspective looking at something, you still only get one side of the issue.

I would approve Sinsie OR Cea OR LP, but not more then one of them.

Honestly, for a third admin choice it would be kind of tough. I think the three 'archtypes' we need in a good admin team are.

-The Friendly Guy
-The Mean Guy
-The Decider

As is the way it is, the Friendly and Mean admins will often disagree on how to handle things, that is good, it ensures every angle of the problem is looked at. Then it gets decided.

I think, in a ideal plan, admins should not usually agree. It helps to ensure completeness of judgment as long as all of them are willing to obey the 2/3 rule.

On this note, the reason I would prefer not even seeing two of the above listed, is because then they can essentially over rule anything since they almost always agree, which returns us to this problem again.

Perhaps it won't happen, perhaps it will, but I'd rather not chance it. Because we all know if Cea was admin and Sinsie wasn't, he'd still ask his view before he did something big.

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Just to comment on what Locke said about us finding something to hate about 2 more admins as well.

Positions of authority will never be fully loved by everyone, even the most perfect justified and explained reasons will piss someone off. The point of having an admin team isn't because we truly believe it'll keep everyone happy.

It's simply to keep the admins honest as far as decision making goes. Every time they ban someone, it won't be a collective affirmative response from the community, but having three minds agree on the ban makes the reasoning much more unassailable when it comes time for the complaints to come in.

Long story short: 3 admins won't make everyone happy, but it makes it a bit closer to everyone happy.

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Not really a problem since we don't judge people based on how much we like or hate them. I took Black's word that Oon started harassing him and got a log of Oon instigating Black by using racial slurs (bannable at that time) and this was when Black was causing trouble for the entire game. I've also argued with Cea quite a bit over these things but before opinions even come into play the main thing is to get people that follow the rules set out before them. When you don't go off people's words alone and get 100% factual proof of what's happening, there's no room for error (unless the admins do all that work and decide to hide it, only thing I can think of). Admins have always been more or less friendly with each other anyways at the start, but the issues that came up were them not doing the job right (like when Cea and I got fed up with Emma and tried getting her removed for being more of a burden than helping out).

The main problem is just doing the job right. If banning people was a debatable issue then your concern would be pretty big, but honestly if things aren't clear we shouldn't be banning in the first place and instead decide whether or not a rule needs to be made. We've relied heavily on logs, screenshots, investigating multiple reports of the same thing in the past, we'll just do that again. There's no room really for admin bias to get in the way; if that happens then the admins were probably going about it the wrong way in the first place.

I'd say let us have a shot together, even if we are friends just so we have admins to fix things and if problems pop up regarding group-think or targetting/avoiding certain people, then it'll be brought up on the forums once more. It is a valid point Lumino, but I'm saying just trust us in doing the job right and there shouldn't be any problems that will develop as a result.

We've actually talked about making a little system where people can criticize admins in a topic made just for them so the admins can address that, among the other things we're working on. I'm not trying to be sneaky and say "just wait we'll tell you later" but I'm holding off on saying too much what we're planning since we need Gaku to say okay first (I don't wanna waste hours typing up stuff more or less...). To give you guys a clue of what we were brainstorming though one idea is an appeal system where people who are banned can appeal for either a)their innocence and making a topic why so in a polite, calm manner or b)admitting their guilt and wanting to show that they will not do the same thing again to lessen ban times. Hope that's clear enough for everyone.

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To be flat out honest on this.

I do not, and will not support you and Cea as admins again, Sinsie.

Back in the first hosting of 4.0, people were breaking the rules and were getting away with it with barely a tap on the wrist.
For instance, a group of players sexually harassing another player, killing her constantly because she'd refuse to cyber with them. We reported it to you, including a log of this event.

Nothing was done other than them being told "oh stop it". They continued the idiocy, and would always threaten my domain unless "you send (her) up here to Shyron alone."

That, my friends, is not proper moderation at all.

Had you immediately punished them with something tangible, such as even a three-day ban, and made it public, it would have been much more tolerable, but allowing people to fling sexual harassment left and right without any regard for the rules?

FFO and Terulia do not need this. It will never need this.

You are unfit as admins.


I may not play the game, but this lets me look at this without bias, without "oh god I cannot speak against him he'll PK me ingame.", which in this community, will happen when people speak against those in power.

You may claim to have changed your ways from then, but I still will not support. I did not forget the LONG period of time where the two of you were constantly belittling Gaku on the old forums. Why should you two have any sort of power beneathe him when you cannot even respect him proper? You had your chance, and were not up to the task.

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@Kumog: Find the topic on the FFO forums were we covered this issue already please. I cleaned out my PM box and don't have the original PM so I don't know what I did. I do know that when the Norkians gave me their word they'd stop I didn't get anymore complaints. If you're honestly going to hold something like that against me, it sounds like you're just letting your emotions get the best of you. :/

And I have banned them before. But I will agree that I was too light on people at the start, which is when I just became admin. You going to really hold that against me as a reason not to be admin?

And what did Cea even do?

Edit: Forgot the arguing with Gaku bit. We figured maybe Gaku would see our point of view but he didn't. If you haven't noticed lots of other people once respected like Malthros also have left because they didn't like the direction. Forgive us for trying to fix where the game was headed.

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Yeah, I was there, as Mai. Honestly, I have to say, there were a lot of things that were pretty corrupt. They were there with Norkia and let the Norkians get away with spamming people (one particular time when Dzungaria was holed up in the desert hut comes to mind) with incredibly offensive insults. In addition, I saw the sexual harassment too. Even now, I know they'd spam kill if I let them get away with it. Having Cea as an active player has honestly reminded me of why I would never appoint them as admins alongside me, and that as long as I'm here, they won't be admins again. They try to spam kill people off the game and think that's okay. Plus even though hes been nice lately, I can just feel the manipulative attitude coming off both of them when they talk to me. Its so obvious, and I really hope the entire community isn't blinded by this like it seems. Seriously guys, they do this every single time theres a major complaint.

I don't think there's any point in this, because I doubt any of you will listen, but I figure I'll post it anyway. That said:



I agree with having the admin character on a separate character, on a separate key. There's a slight boost of convenience with what we have now, but our problems with admins taking advantage of it is so bad that it's actually better to keep admin char away and on stand-by.

Scenario: I get a tip someone is abusing. I hit relog. I logout, as I'm switching, the other party goes "Locke's relogging quick stop it." I get on my GM key, they've stopped. That's just incredibly obvious and would make GM totally ineffectual, I can't believe you would suggest such a thing.

The fact that admin is also called GM now is a big sign we need to take steps in fixing that.

Its not. GM is a seperate ability. Quite irrelevant since I am the only admin and I have both, but I just wanted to make it clear they're not the same thing, and one can be given one and not the other. Also, as I've justified earlier in this topic, GM is fine.

LP was talking with me about how he's been moderating previous games before and since he has, well let's just say a "real life" plus other factors to consider, he has the type of mindset that doesn't see adjunct-admin as anything but adjunct-admin and is definitely a good choice

I had to remove him twice in his first week as Renamer because LP thought it would be okay to screw around with someone's name to teach them a lesson. Then I give Renamer back to him a couple weeks later and he does it again. LP is a horrible choice for admin. He lets emotions get the best of him, can't stay calm, and can't think level-headed. LP is very immature.

Cea and I always talk about stuff together, pretty much everything, and he works with Gaku a lot more and I work on getting little tidbits and accumulating "evidence" more often so even though it's sorta gay to say I suggest that if one of us gets admin, the other should get it as well. It's not like it's an outrageous idea since a) we already did that just fine, b) Emma and Locke were also like this (two admins in a relationship moderating the game). It would really just be annoying if only one of us gets it because the rules say you can't log into another's character and we'd trust each other with admin, only one of us would get to post and we're on at different times, etc.

Typical Cea-Sinsie double team power grab. Why am I not surprised? Frankly I'm just surprised it took this long into the drama for this post to show up this time. You guys are desperate, and it shows. I doubt that Gaku will ever consider you guys again considering the crap you pulled last time. It was to the point where you were on the verge of being banned from the forums because you did nothing but shitpost. Gaku even agreed on that one, yet another reason I highly doubt he'll ever take either of you seriously.

The rest of your post is more of the same "make us admins, we love helping people, we'll do it if we really have to and we're great at it" stuff you guys post every single time.

Give it a rest, I don't think Gaku's forgotten the way you acted before. Its even a policy of mine, and I wouldn't be surprised if Gaku thought the same way, to not appoint anyone who asks for it, and since you guys have not only asked for it, but made ultimatums and then shitposted afterward when things didn't go your way, I highly doubt Gaku would ever appoint either of you again.





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Cea had angered you to the point where you had left FFO yourself for quite some time. If the admins are able to drive eachother into rages and quitting, even if they're best friends, they need to rethink whether they want the position or not.

I didn't bother to report to you because after that, I just went straight to Gaku on things like this, due to your inaction towards them.

Making a huge mistake like that early on, especially on an extremely easy decision to make (as sexual harassment is extremely easy to tell when one person is telling them repeatedly to STOP and lay off them), is nothing but bad for you.

The topic where it was involved was deleted in a purge of Guides/Moderation to my knowledge, as I was unable to find it, but even deleting topics will not make me forget such horrible moderation.

I honestly believe the same as Garral right now: None of the people vying for admin are qualified to be it.

If things were up to me, I would rather FFO go down until Terulia is released instead of arguing over who would administrate the game, as it is easier, quicker, and overall would be less drama for the community, along with helping Terulia arrive faster, AND helping people calm down with their crazy hatred towards one another.

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A very simple solution to the logging out to go on GM key; simply allow multikeying with both your keys. Doesn't require that much thinking broski.

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Then what's the point Haze? I guess so I couldn't abuse GM to escape pvp, but theres no way I could do that without being caught, nor would I ever do it again.

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Locke wrote:

Yeah, I was there, as Mai. Honestly, I have to say, there were a lot of things that were pretty corrupt. They were there with Norkia and let the Norkians get away with spamming people (one particular time when Dzungaria was holed up in the desert hut comes to mind) with incredibly offensive insults. In addition, I saw the sexual harassment too. Even now, I know they'd spam kill if I let them get away with it. Having Cea as an active player has honestly reminded me of why I would never appoint them as admins alongside me, and that as long as I'm here, they won't be admins again. They try to spam kill people off the game and think that's okay. Plus even though hes been nice lately, I can just feel the manipulative attitude coming off both of them when they talk to me. Its so obvious, and I really hope the entire community isn't blinded by this like it seems. Seriously guys, they do this every single time theres a major complaint.

All I'm going to ask you is tell me who the Norkians spam-killed specifically and how many people I spam-killed/help support corruptness with as a white wizard.

The Dzungaria holed up in the desert hut thing had its own topic already covered. Seld got banned for it, by me, since he actually used "person behind the keyboard" insults. This happened after Gaku said "there's a filter now anything goes". You seem pretty quick to use that Gaku argument, and wow, it's here too.

Here's the topic:

http://z3.invisionfree.com/ffo/index.php?showtopic=8616

Oh yeah, thanks for reporting all that abuse before on Mai, Locke. Wouldn't that make you an accomplice, knowing about it but not saying anything?

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And you honestly think your word is worth anything right now, Locke? There are very few people in the community that respect you and trust you, and it's quite obvious. While that might not be an issue to you, it'll start huge shitstorms like this that you don't like.

I think the best way to go about it is to prevent the possibility of abuse the best we can instead of just letting it be up to you whether or not you want to use it.

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Kumog wrote:

I didn't bother to report to you because after that, I just went straight to Gaku on things like this, due to your inaction towards them.

Making a huge mistake like that early on, especially on an extremely easy decision to make (as sexual harassment is extremely easy to tell when one person is telling them repeatedly to STOP and lay off them), is nothing but bad for you.

So what did Gaku do about it? I guess nothing since it wasn't actually a good report at all. If I remember the log right, that yellow red mage/wizard was saying crap to them back and it wasn't that sexual at all. It said kiss, that was it.

You guys just hated Norkia because they PKed you ever since the server started (I remember being in your party PKed too). Sounds more like you being petty, Kumog.

Also prove how me not banning anyone for this made me a worse admin the rest of the time?

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All I'm going to ask you is tell me who the Norkians spam-killed specifically and how many people I spam-killed/help support corruptness with as a white wizard.

I can't remember exact people. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Its your word against mine.

OK so don't go blaming admins non-stop every day. Makes Gaku's job really hard. Look into things next time mr don't-get-an-attitude.

Gee, where am I seeing this right now... I don't see the relevance to that topic, perhaps you could explain it in detail instead of throwing out a link and saying "look we already resolved it!" even though it doesn't.

Oh yeah, thanks for reporting all that abuse before on Mai, Locke. Wouldn't that make you an accomplice, knowing about it but not saying anything?

Let's see, you guys and the most powerful group of individuals in the game were allies, and I saw you were getting away with things. I knew you had it to the point where Gaku would let you handle everything, and I also knew any remote threat to your position would put you guys in a frenzy to silence it. The bottom line is that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere, so there was no point.

If you really must know, part of the reason I took the position I'm in now is to prevent you and other people like you from becoming admins again. In 3.5, I thought I was just biased. I gave you a second chance when I played Mai, but after what I saw, I knew that if I kept playing eventually I'd have to stop you somehow. You guys allowed one group to get away with almost anything they wanted, and only punished them if you absolutely had to to protect your position. Fortunately, you guys rage quit on your own (Great adminship, isn't that what you always made fun of Elyk for doing?) so I didn't have to do anything, except clean up the administration that came after you.



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Weird Locke, Sinsie and I like to be admins partially to avoid people like you getting it. Weird how worthless that point is.

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Just so I can toss this out: I would trust Dean as an admin before you guys.

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Gaku had raised a stink at the both of you onforum, asking why HE was being reported to instead of you two, when the report specifically mentioned how you two did NOTHING against Norkia.

Another case in point: Letto blatantly sexually harassing Emma.

Even if it's over Dsay, sexual harassment is not something you let fly, even if it's from someone who "doesn't know better." They will not ever "know better" until you show them that what they did was wrong, not just laugh at them.

You two may be folks I would call friends, but you are not people I would call good admins in any form. As Locke stated quite succinctly, you two let things fly way too often when it came to your friends, but when it was other people (such as Dzungaria), boy that hammer would come down.

Locke may not be perfect, but he at least will not hesitate to enforce the rules on those who break them, even if they would be his best friends.

Having a drive to "help the game" is nowhere near as important as the ability to be impartial, an ability that you and Cea clearly lack.

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