So, Terulia currently uses the allowance system, right?

I'm going to assume that most people prefer the experience system with a few people who can tolerate allowance, and even fewer: people who enjoy allowance more than experience.

Well, we know the allowance system was first added to stop people from abusing the whole afk training thing (dean).

Instead of reinstating the allowance system for Terulia, why not keep a standard exp system (mob dies, you get exp, you spend it on profs/level up etc) and remove exp gain from USING abilities. This will prevent people from afking to prof armor/mantra training, but keep the exp system we all know and love.

With 'garland alts' not really an issue with Terulia aswell, why not remove the prof requirement for leveling up, too?

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why not keep a standard exp system (mob dies, you get exp, you spend it on profs/level up etc) and remove exp gain from USING abilities.

1) Not gaining EXP from using abilities has still proven to be abusable. One hosting a few years ago I just auto-followed and AFKed groups for about 30 logged hours when someone told me to get on and ended up with a strong WW out of it. Yes, there have been discussions about alternatives. I'll dig some up that I've made later if you want to discuss this.

2) EXP Dumping. A lot of why Gaku (and the surprisingly-more-than-you-think of us who like the Allowance system) goes for the Allowance system is because it removes the ability to spam one ability, go into town, and make a different ability you've never touched instantly perfect.

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A hybrid is still the best system. Basically, you gain allowance, but when you would get profs you get exp instead. So you cant just mantra in an inn room, but you can't just autofollow a huge ass party, and ww's dont spend parties just spamming pray/lamp. BOOM

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Mint wrote:

A hybrid is still the best system. Basically, you gain allowance, but when you would get profs you get exp instead. So you cant just mantra in an inn room, but you can't just autofollow a huge ass party, and ww's dont spend parties just spamming pray/lamp. BOOM

The problem here is that you still gain allowance if you autofollow.

You can just remove the ability to autofollow. That way the person training has to be there in some sort of way to move with the party.

Dragging spawns back to an afk person will yield much less exp than if they were to be with the party. Especially if they end up in OW state, they won't get exp at all.

OR, keep the legit autofollow (both in OW state, click attack on someone) but make the autofollow STOP if either person goes into battle mode.

Shane wrote:

why not keep a standard exp system (mob dies, you get exp, you spend it on profs/level up etc) and remove exp gain from USING abilities.

1) Not gaining EXP from using abilities has still proven to be abusable. One hosting a few years ago I just auto-followed and AFKed groups for about 30 logged hours when someone told me to get on and ended up with a strong WW out of it. Yes, there have been discussions about alternatives. I'll dig some up that I've made later if you want to discuss this.

2) EXP Dumping. A lot of why Gaku (and the surprisingly-more-than-you-think of us who like the Allowance system) goes for the Allowance system is because it removes the ability to spam one ability, go into town, and make a different ability you've never touched instantly perfect.

1: The amount you gain from using abilities is very low right now, basically non existant, with the removal of autofollow this is fixed.
2: EXP dumping. OK. Say you're in an area where Light is terrible, and you're a WW. Are you just supposed to not train there if you need to prof Light? What if the monsters in the area knew all sorts of status spells and a party NEEDS a WW there for Esuna? Or Wall? Or just cures in general? That WW should be able to spend the exp they gain there being a helpful member to their party on other abilities that can be useful in other situations.

And it's not like it takes 1 party to prof something to max. So you can't just "go into town, and make a different ability you've never touched instantly perfect". It's not instant.

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Nabutso Zaih wrote:

Shane wrote:

why not keep a standard exp system (mob dies, you get exp, you spend it on profs/level up etc) and remove exp gain from USING abilities.

1) Not gaining EXP from using abilities has still proven to be abusable. One hosting a few years ago I just auto-followed and AFKed groups for about 30 logged hours when someone told me to get on and ended up with a strong WW out of it. Yes, there have been discussions about alternatives. I'll dig some up that I've made later if you want to discuss this.

2) EXP Dumping. A lot of why Gaku (and the surprisingly-more-than-you-think of us who like the Allowance system) goes for the Allowance system is because it removes the ability to spam one ability, go into town, and make a different ability you've never touched instantly perfect.

1: The amount you gain from using abilities is very low right now, basically non existant, with the removal of autofollow this is fixed.

It's not really fixed, more just mildly stifled. The allowances system acts as a gigantic gate to prevent spoonfeeding. The EXP system is massively rifled with it, because even if one can't just autofollow and AFK, they only have to be within a few screens and in battle mode of the enemies dying to receive Experience - i.e., out of harm's way. As long as there are people that can kill the enemies, anyone too weak can stand back and reap benefits with no real skill. The allowances system requires players to actually go in and be committed to a battle, meaning to gain the rewards of battle they must take the risks and sacrifice the resources. Powergaming still exists, but spoonfeeding is a lot more difficult and requires actual skill on everyone's behalf to manage.

And even then, removing gaining experience outside of the screen a mob dies in won't help because players can still stay massively uncommitted with no benefits.

2: EXP dumping. OK. Say you're in an area where Light is terrible, and you're a WW. Are you just supposed to not train there if you need to prof Light? What if the monsters in the area knew all sorts of status spells and a party NEEDS a WW there for Esuna? Or Wall? Or just cures in general? That WW should be able to spend the exp they gain there being a helpful member to their party on other abilities that can be useful in other situations.

And it's not like it takes 1 party to prof something to max. So you can't just "go into town, and make a different ability you've never touched instantly perfect". It's not instant.

No, if you're in that area, I presume you would be training Esuna, or Wall, or Cures in general. The former two are pretty difficult to cap even as a dedicated player, and the latter, there's so many forms of most players could either find a use or demand that melees suck it up and use potions. Besides that, in Terulia, skills should be a lot more difficult to cap and there should be plenty of areas to actually manage to train different skills, and in Terulia, you aren't going outside solely for the specific reason to train skills or gain EXP or whatever.

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1) Shane, no one in the entire world who has ever played ffo but you likes the allowance system. this is a scientific fact

2) the people who are going to abuse and cause trouble are going to do so no matter what system you implement; the better way to deal with that is either dealing with those people in a one-on-one manner or just not giving a **** either way (what usually happens with ffo anyway); forcing a terrible and completely unfun system on the entire playerbase just because one or two chuckleheads like to be dirty rotten cheaters doesn't make sense.

if you absolutely HAVE to go with allowance in terulia, please, for the love of grod, put in a bar or something that shows how much allowance you have left so you never feel like you're wasting turns not spending any, or whatever. Also make ABSOLUTELY SURE that skills like buffs and Life and **** like that are easier to train. No, don't give me that 'you have to earn it' bull****, no one with an ounce of intellect wants to spend hundreds of hours playing an 8bit online game just to 'get strong' in it; I'm not saying make every cast of xmagic level it up, but the way it worked before was too hard to ever be worth it, thus why the exp dumping system WORKED -- you EARNED exp by PLAYING the game then DUMPED it into skills you'll NEVER BE able to raise by any other means. We don't need this to be Ultima, we need it to be a fun online game that DRAWS PEOPLE IN.

Unless changes like these or implemented OR you just follow Nabutso's advice, I for one will never come back; nor will most oldbies, except for maybe about a week at first to test the waters then leave; nor will any new players.

Like, seriously, either pander to the Shanes and Garrals and Arcuses out there who crave convincing themselves to enjoy bad decisions in gameplay and and sucking your **** or make a game that's actually fun, your choice Gaku-sama

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Except other people DO like allowance, and Gakul hates oldbies and wants to dump as much of the old community as possible when moving to terulia. I'm p sure he's even said this, though I don't remember where.

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Elias wrote:

1) Shane, no one in the entire world who has ever played ffo but you likes the allowance system. this is a scientific fact

How about **** you and take the smug attitude somewhere else; there are people who like the allowance system, Shane isn't alone. this is a scientific fact

If you plan to "never come back", then you have the option to leave; bye.

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Dr. Letha wrote:

Elias wrote:

1) Shane, no one in the entire world who has ever played ffo but you likes the allowance system. this is a scientific fact

How about **** you and take the smug attitude somewhere else; there are people who like the allowance system, Shane isn't alone. this is a scientific fact

If you plan to "never come back", then you have the option to leave; bye.

The 5 or so people who played the allowance server liked allowance. The vast majority does not.

The fact still stands that more players enjoy exp over allowance, which means more people will be playing and enjoying the game.

If you like allowance, fine, but why ruin the game for the majority just for a small select group of people?

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Mint wrote:

Except other people DO like allowance, and Gakul hates oldbies and wants to dump as much of the old community as possible when moving to terulia. I'm p sure he's even said this, though I don't remember where.

Logically speaking, ideas shouldn't be based off of who pisses off the people you don't like most and should be focused around what makes the game better/more enjoyable. Almost every single topic here eventually delves into this side versus that side instead of arguing solely on ideas standing by themselves. It really feels like I'm watching Democrats versus Republicans because it's more of a pride-war between two sides than anything else.

Also, responding to something like Elias' statement 100% serious just makes you look like an idiot and your post is essentially spam (I would treat it as such in the past). By this far in life you should get the meaning.

On-topic, it's tedious to follow this system to raise your skills. There's no point in arguing what would make sense or what should be earned, all of you follow the same rules anyways so it might as well be pleasant and easy to work with. This isn't an Elder Scrolls game where the game tries to make you role-play leveling up your skills (and the game even offers skill level-ups you can buy).

If people are so worried of others abusing experience and stuff, you could always get rid of mobs that offer ridiculously high experience and even it out more among areas or lower the amount of experience it takes to reach total level and have there be more focus on getting good gear or working with people. Changes like that would make more sense and put an end to building up such a complicated system.

Or just deal with people exploiting like they always do.

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Sinsie wrote:

If people are so worried of others abusing experience and stuff, you could always get rid of mobs that offer ridiculously high experience and even it out more among areas or lower the amount of experience it takes to reach total level and have there be more focus on getting good gear or working with people. Changes like that would make more sense and put an end to building up such a complicated system.

Or just deal with people exploiting like they always do.

It's not high exp mobs that caused the problem, really. Exp being pumped into armor prof by being afk was the only abuse in the system other than mantra training.

Exploits can be fixed, no reason to deal with them when there are several ways to do it that do not invollve a tedious system.

To fix afk training: Getting hit/hitting something/using ability/casting spell no longer giving exp. Fix autofollow so that it does not work.

No allowance needed.

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Header remark: *****ing about FFO vs. Terulia is like *****ing about Super Mario Sunshine vs. Starcraft. The analogy is actually fairly solid, to the best of my knowledge.

Elias wrote:

no one with an ounce of intellect wants to spend hundreds of hours playing an 8bit online game just to 'get strong' in it;

I am disappointed in you, Elias. I thought you were cool. I thought you were a bro.

****, I'm not a fan of ponies but I've still tolerated it from you and Gaku. I enjoyed seeing your art progress as it did, and then you do this?

QQ.

Elias wrote:

you EARNED exp by PLAYING the game

Incorrect. The entire issue at hand is that you EARNED exp by being LOGGED INTO the game and in a certain scenario. Autofollowing or not, you could progress through the game without actually playing it, because you did not commit yourself to the game. That's not playing the game. If anything, that's more of a waste of time because you are not allowing yourself the inherent feeling of being committed to something.

With the allowance system, you EARNED strength by PLAYING the game. It might not have been executed well, and even I have suggested potentially better designs for it, but it enforces a commitment.

Shanes and Garrals and Arcuses

The latter two haven't even had **** to do with FFO or Terulia since like three years ago. In fact, I recently spoke with Arcus regarding the direction Terulia is meant to head and he was like, "lol that's dumb" or something similar.

I, on the other hand, support the direction Gaku wishes to take Terulia, which FFO players do not understand has nothing to ****ing do with FFO at all to begin with. See: Header remark.

bad decisions in gameplay

I doubt you know **** about game design.

sucking your ****

Oh dear it's Blaxco all over again?

Mint typo'd:

Gakul hates oldbies and wants to dump as much of the old community as possible when moving to terulia. I'm p sure he's even said this, though I don't remember where.

I don't know if Gaku actually hates oldbies, but he does not intend Terulia to be made for the same audience as FFO had captured. See: Header remark.

Nabutso Zaih wrote:

The 5 or so people who played the allowance server liked allowance. The vast majority does not.

The fact still stands that more players enjoy exp over allowance, which means more people will be playing and enjoying the game.

If you like allowance, fine, but why ruin the game for the majority just for a small select group of people?

I would estimate it was more than five.

I will agree. More FFO players enjoy EXP over Allowance. EXP is what FFO had, and should continue to have, albeit with minor tweaks to prevent the massive abhorrent spoonfeeding and general imbalance overall, because FFO is a game about being incredibly stupidly ridiculously strong and having such an amazing burst that it instagibs the enemy. Most everything in the game comes down to the amount of burst one can do and the amount of mitigation one can do to the enemy's burst.

But the small select group of people that liked Allowance are more likely to like the direction that Terulia is headed, which caters to a completely different audience to begin with, and has very little cross with the audience that FFO appeals to. See: Header remark.

Sinsie mewled:

Logically speaking, ideas shouldn't be based off of who pisses off the people you don't like most and should be focused around what makes the game better/more enjoyable.

See: Header remark.

It's not actually made to piss off or spite FFO players.

Sinsie mewled:

On-topic, it's tedious to follow this system to raise your skills. There's no point in arguing what would make sense or what should be earned, all of you follow the same rules anyways so it might as well be pleasant and easy to work with. This isn't an Elder Scrolls game where the game tries to make you role-play leveling up your skills (and the game even offers skill level-ups you can buy).

It is made of tedium, yes, though much of FFO is also tedium, such as hunting for a high-grade Strung Pincer. There's a lot of things that are tedious in life, but almost everything tedious can be enjoyed by the right kind of person.

Footer remark: The analogy in the header remark is solid because Super Mario Sunshine can be enjoyed on a very shallow level, but for "completion" of the Sunshine experience, a lot of time must be devoted to doing tedious or insanely difficult tasks, specifically the blue coin hunt. This collect-a-thon relates well to the grind-a-thon aspect of FFO, missing only the social interaction. Starcraft, on the other hand, is more driven towards odd objectives, though IIRC it does have like, things that could be construed as 'grindy' for 'getting stronger', though it's not the ultimate purpose or goal of the game. This relates to what I know of Gaku's intended output for Terulia. I included this explanation at the end because if I put it at the beginning I could only really expect people to say I'm just bull****ting and not read my actual post. Hopefully now my actual post will be read before I'm told that I'm a stupid dumb ****er who deserves to die.

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I think allowances would be better if they made sense. Like casting fire 1 would eventually give you fire 2.. make other spells come by obtaining a level.

I think a hybrid system would be a lot better. only allow exp gain if there are kills.

Make the away followers lose battle mode if they don't do anything.

You are not gonna make it impossible to away train. its possible to kill mobs drink pots talk to players, even buy pots,and logout when someone tele u when they wonder if your a bot...

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Dricien wrote:

I think allowances would be better if they made sense. Like casting fire 1 would eventually give you fire 2.. make other spells come by obtaining a level.

I think a hybrid system would be a lot better. only allow exp gain if there are kills.

Make the away followers lose battle mode if they don't do anything.

You are not gonna make it impossible to away train. its possible to kill mobs drink pots talk to players, even buy pots,and logout when someone tele u when they wonder if your a bot...

That's an intensive bot, and to my knowledge only two people have actually gone to the lengths of creating one for FFO. For all intents and purposes, the bot itself plays the game as the game is intended, and while an extreme advantage for a player, it's a different kind of unfair.


The AFK training that actually presents a problem roots from an entirely flawed design. It's not even that it can be done while AFK - it's that rewards are given despite a lack of commitment to a battle. The allowances system resolves this by enforcing a commitment to reap an award.

And in Terulia, skills are intended to basically work like that.

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The ring of inspiration I suggested was my idea cause my bot kept running out of torches and detecting colors don't work at night so well..

Haven't used it since then it was quite Intense yes, and a world of diff from spamming cure in a inn room

Never caught on the first one but the second I was caught right away a good gm with odd hour checks works well.

I guess my point is allowances take away what made ffo great and that's focusing on killin stuff then u choose how those rewards will be spent. Allowances are focus on rewards kill Stuff 2nd.
But why can't u have both keep Exp keep trainers and just make it so u don't get Exp without allowances

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Dricien wrote:

The ring of inspiration I suggested was my idea cause my bot kept running out of torches and detecting colors don't work at night so well..

Haven't used it since then it was quite Intense yes, and a world of diff from spamming cure in a inn room

Never caught on the first one but the second I was caught right away a good gm with odd hour checks works well.

I guess my point is allowances take away what made ffo great and that's focusing on killin stuff then u choose how those rewards will be spent. Allowances are focus on rewards kill Stuff 2nd.
But why can't u have both keep Exp keep trainers and just make it so u don't get Exp without allowances

Because the allowances stat almost directly replaces experience, and it still wouldn't resolve the issue. All it would mean is that the first monster you kill, you do not get experience, and using too many skills means you do not get experience. In fact, such a system would actually benefit playing passively and not being committed to the battle.

Allowances don't change it to focusing primarily on rewards and secondarily killing stuff; you still have to maintain a steady stream of killing enemies, or else you won't have the Allowances to properly train what you want to. It's more of mixing the two together and forcing the player, if they want to play efficiently, to question how best to use their skills to kill stuff without wasting Allowance. And contrary to popular belief, a handful of people came to accepting if not liking that system for the different kind of strategy it requires. I'm not going to namedrop since apparently it's shameful to like Allowances and also the main person I'm thinking of apparently hates me now so would probably contradict me just to make me suffer.

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reply to Elias:

Without going into too much detail, Terulia is designed to be very different from FFO, with more focus on teamwork and strategy than the personal power grind.

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Grameramera wrote:

reply to Elias:

Without going into too much detail

I think this is why a lot of people are skeptical about Terulia. They don't know the details.

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reply to Grameramera:

I agree that the focus on gameplay should revolve more around Kingdoms, Clans, Guilds. FFO was many years ago on the right track when we used to have about 3-5 player run Kingdoms to choose from.

My question is how? In which way is the development of this new system (Terulia) going to be drastically different from FFO? I'm a idealist, but I just don't see it happening without a change in the in-game economy (not talking about just weapons and armor, but more of items like potions, food, raw materials aka wood, stone, herbs).



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Dr. Letha wrote:

Grameramera wrote:

reply to Elias:

Without going into too much detail

I think this is why a lot of people are skeptical about Terulia. They don't know the details.

Can you blame Gaku for not bothering? Any details that are released are typically torn apart as being **** for not being FFO.

A while back, Black and Crew were desperate to know information about Terulia (to suck cock and try to get admin since apparently that's how I did it) and Marcus and I were there to help explain it. The conversation went literally like this:

Black: Tell me about Terulia.
Shane explains things.
Marcus agrees and explains more things that Shane doesn't know.
Black: Naw, naw, I wanna hear dat from Gaku heself! xO
Gaku: Well, I agree with pretty much everything those two said.
Black: Naw, naw, I wanna hear dat from Gaku heself! xO
Shane: Gaku just said he agrees, what more do you want?
Black: Naw, naw, I wanna hear dat from Gaku heself! xO
Gaku explains a few things.
Black: Can I has admin?

Just look at this thread. Most people refuse to accept the idea of allowances even though it helps prevent something drastically abuseable by FFO. FFO relies on those abuseable things to be interesting, but Terulia is meant to be more.

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